Episode Transcript
Two Booked Up Episode 49 The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin
[00:00:00] Shelley: Hello, Two Booked Up friends! I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith here with my biz bestie and podcast co host Rowena Mabbott, and today we are revisiting one of our most referenced episodes. Hello, Ro.
[00:00:19] Rowena: Hi Shelley! Yes, The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin is a book, or perhaps we should say framework, that we reference in nearly every episode. So, as we're having a little break between Season 3 and Season 4 of the podcast, we thought it would be a great conversation and episode to revisit.
[00:00:38] Shelley: Absolutely, so we're sharing our very first episode where we gave an overview of the book and the key themes, but we did four episodes about the four tendencies. So there are three more episodes that you can listen to. Those are episodes two, three, and four. If you want to learn more and dig in a little bit deeper and hear everything we have to say about this book.
[00:01:02] Rowena: It's definitely one of our favorite books, so stay tuned to enjoy revisiting episode one of the podcast, as we discuss The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin.
[00:01:12] Welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Rowena Mabbott.
[00:01:19] Shelley: And I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. We're two well read best friends.
[00:01:23] Rowena: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We're going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list.
[00:01:36] Shelley: Because as multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read, but we also know how much you love learning, growing, and making a difference in the world.
[00:01:47] Rowena: So, treat yourself to a bit of bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not.
[00:01:53] Shelley: With your two friends on Two Booked Up.
[00:01:56] So today we're going to be talking about the book, The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. So this book has been a game changer for both Rowena and i in the way that we run our businesses but also in how we understand ourselves
[00:02:17] Rowena: So maybe you'll like me and you're quite self-directed and you don't have too much trouble keeping two deadlines or managing your tasks, but you might also get the jitters when your plans change or you can't understand why it's so hard for someone to keep their promises.
[00:02:32] Shelley: Or, maybe you're like me and you're spontaneous. And you boldly face up to challenges. But you feel constrained by schedules and rules. When you find something you love, you pursue it with all your hearts. But if there's something that has to be done. It's just so hard to do
[00:02:52] Rowena: And according to Gretchen Rubin, these behaviors occur as a result of our tendencies.
[00:02:57] Background to The Four Tendencies
[00:02:57] Rowena: Shelly and I happen to have complete opposite tendencies, but before we get into that, let's go through the premise of the book and give you a summary of what it's about.
[00:03:06] Shelley: Okay. So the four tendencies actually originated in one of Gretchen's prior books called Better Than Before. A book about habit change. As she dug deeper into the idea of habits. She considered new year's resolutions. And she started noticing that some people could keep new year's resolutions with no problem.
[00:03:26] And then others could not. Unless, they had someone checking up on them and holding them accountable. Then there were those who said that new year's resolutions were arbitrary. And why should they make a change on the 1st of January over any other day? And then there was another group of people who just didn't like new year's resolutions at all because they felt they would to bind in and restrictive
[00:03:52] Rowena: and it was then, but it hit her. These differences were all about expectations, specifically, outer expectations and inner expectations. Outer expectations are those that others place on us, such as deadlines or reaching goals on your smartwatch. Inner expectations are the expectations we have of ourselves, like keeping a new year's resolution.
[00:04:15] What are the Four Tendencies? And how can you find yours?
[00:04:15] Shelley: So, yes. It all came down to the question. How do I respond to expectations? And so now I'm going to quote from The Four Tendencies to give you an overview of the four tendencies. Depending on a person's response to outer and inner expectations. That person falls into one of four distinct types.
[00:04:37] Upholders respond readily to both outer expectations and inner expectations. Questioners question all expectations. They meet an expectation only if they believe it's justified. So in effect they respond only to inner expectations, Obligers respond readily to outer expectations, but struggle to meet inner expectations.
[00:05:07] Rebels resist all expectations. Outer and inner alike. End quote.
[00:05:15] So if we had the benefits of a PowerPoint presentation right now, We'd show you a four circle Venn diagram with the upholder and obliger circles overlapping because they both respond well to outer expectations. And the upholder and question a circles overlap on the other side because they both respond well to inner expectations. Okay. You with me now with my, my, my, for Venn diagram, another fourth one.
[00:05:45] Is the upholder and the rebel circles do not overlap. Because rebels do not respond well to either inner or outer expectations. So that the rebel circle is at the bottom of that four circle Venn diagram. If you once an actual image. Then go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com to take the four tendencies quiz.
[00:06:09] Or you can buy the book if you like the sound of what we're discussing today.
[00:06:13] Rowena: Yes, because I'm sure you're wondering. Hmm. Well, let's talk about tendencies. I wonder which tendency am I, so you can take the free quiz online, or you can get it from the book, but you may already have an inkling as to which tendency you are. I know, I certainly did the first few times I heard Gretchen talk about them on her podcast.
[00:06:33] So you might also be wondering which tendency is the best or which tendency should I be? Now Gretchen cautions against this, there is no right or best tendency instead. It's all about self knowledge and then playing to the strengths of that tendency because every tendency has strengths and weaknesses
[00:06:54] Shelley: Knowing your own tendency, you can really be life-changing. But so it can known other people's tendencies. I can speak for myself that known other people's tendencies has really helped me to be more understanding of where they're coming from and to frame their actions in the most generous lights
[00:07:13] Rowena: okay. So true. So, Shelly, are you ready to share what our tendencies are?
[00:07:19] Shelley: Oh, yes. I can't wait to share. I am a very proud rebel.
[00:07:22] Rowena: And I am the complete opposite and upholder. Interestingly, Gretchen Rubin does say that, well, people will fall squarely into a tendency and that they cannot be a mix of two tendencies. They can be variations within a tendency. So thinking back to that Venn diagram, there is definitely some, Obliger in both an upholder and a rebel.
[00:07:42] And that's where Shelley and I find me both tip a little toward the obliger side of that tendency. Which is why we've found quite a lot of success in accountability, strategies between the two of us.
[00:07:53] Shelley: Yes. So obligers, I actually the largest group of the 4 tendencies. And if you're an obliger, you have to have external accountability to support you to meet expectations. So that's why an accountability partner or an accountability group is great for an obliger. And why does a rebel I'm going to tend to resist outer expectations, having someone like Rowena holds me accountable is very supportive. Not because she's checking up on me. But because part of my identity, what makes me me. Is this business woman, entrepreneur, mompreneur side of me that I want to be really great at. And I know that if I want to be great at that, then I need support and a little bit of structure. Yes.
[00:08:41] To get at least a few of the many ideas I have out of my head. And into the world.
[00:08:47] And then there's the Questioner tendency. And now my husband is a Questioner, so I have some good experience with that tendency. And questioners need to know why before they'll act, they won't do something just because someone says they have to, or because it's always been done that way.
[00:09:06] So they're big researchers and they can sometimes get into analysis paralysis, but I found that once a questioner knows what he wants. He'll often take quick action. Now our listeners can go and read more about this in The Four Tendencies, Rowena. But could you just give us a breakdown of the book structure so that everyone knows what's coming up?
[00:09:26] Structure of the Book
[00:09:26] Rowena: Sure. So the book is structured. Into chapters about each tendency. This is a chapter on understanding that particular tendency. So for example, it starts with upholders and it Gretchen who is an upholder of herself, shares her understanding of all the different facets of being an upholder.
[00:09:47] And then there's another chapter which talks about dealing with that particular tendency in others. So then it's sort of like managing we're living with an upholder.
[00:09:56] So there's the eight or so chapters that cover off the different tendencies and then kind of dealing with all living with that tendency and others. What comes next?
[00:10:05] Shelley: Yeah. So then there's a final section on applying the four tendencies. So that includes a chapter on the pairing of two tendencies. So if you're a rebel and your partner is a questioner, for example, she goes through all the different pairings of the different tendencies. And then there is a chapter on how to appeal to all four tendencies at the same time, how to talk to the different tendencies and appeal to the different tendencies.
[00:10:30] Because we often will try and appeal to our tendency when we're talking to someone who will act for very different reasons. So there was a very good chapter and then there's a final chapter entitled whatever our tendency we can learn to harness its strengths. And I thought that was a very positive way of ending the book because throughout the book, Gretchen talks about how a tendencies strengths could end up being weaknesses. And then by the same token, the weaknesses could be reframed as strengths.
[00:11:01] And I know that focusing on a person's strengths is a core part of your approach to coaching Rowena.
[00:11:07] Rowena: Absolutely. That is absolutely something that I'm deeply passionate about and have been for a long time looking at people's strengths. And I work with my clients around that, particularly as you know, as well. But I do love that Gretchen has acknowledged that through the book, that what might be a strength in some circumstances, or in some situations might be perceived as if not a weakness than something that's perhaps a little bit annoying.
[00:11:31] As part of your tendency or when you're interacting with others, they might find you being a little bit annoying. Not you personally, shelley, of course, but one might be a little bit annoying.
[00:11:41] What did we enjoy about the book?
[00:11:41] Rowena: but it does leave me to some of the things that I think are really great about the book and what I kind of really loved about the book. Particularly if we think that the four tendencies explains why we act and why we don't act. So I like that as a summary of like the essence of the book, it really is explaining why we act and why we don't act.
[00:12:00] It's not a, personality framework or anything else. It is simply around the outer and inner expectations. So if we keeping it from that perspective, that helps us have the awareness of how it's going to support us in our life.
[00:12:15] The other thing I'd like to say for our listeners is it's actually a very enjoyable read.
[00:12:20] It's easy to understand and apply. And I know if, if any of our listeners have also read the book as well, it's pretty easy to spot elements of our loved ones as we read each of the tendencies and possibly even to spot some elements of ourselves as we do so. I also really liked the simplicity of the framework.
[00:12:39] And I think Shelley, you did a beautiful job explaining it's the circular nature and the Venn diagram and the overlaps, which intuitively makes sense. They also aligned generally with our experiences of where people naturally fall. So I think it's got face validity as well as having actual validity, which always helps when we are reading something for the first time and being introduced to new concepts . Also, as you mentioned, the included insights rendered each tendency and the sections, then that outline the variability with each tendency are really valuable. One thing I really loved Shelly was the succinct one page dot point summary at the end of each chapter or in each tendency section.
[00:13:20] Cause they woare really helpful and made the book content easily understood, but also really relatable. So if you just wanted to kind of dip back into the book and see, hang on a minute, I just need a, like a quick refresher. That dot point summary was great.
[00:13:32] Shelley: Yes. And you know, what I also enjoyed on that front is that on the beginning of each tendency, they have a set of quotes from like, okay, what, would a Rebel say? And what would an Upholder say. And one of the ones for upholder. I remember his discipline is my freedom. And then on the rebel side is freedom is my discipline.
[00:13:54] And I think all of these quotes are from Gretchen Rubin's community who have explained what it is to be those different four tendencies. And I really quite enjoyed those because it brought that personality style to each of the chapters.
[00:14:10] Rowena: And for fairness, let's not forget our dear friends. The question is an obliger. So the classic question of questions.
[00:14:16] And anybody who's got children, most children, by the way, start off life, or at least to leave a much of their life as a questioner. And you will be familiar because one of their favorite questions "But Why?" "But Why?"Nd that when it's still in your husband form can be a little frustrating, but it is a classic question, a question about why.
[00:14:36] And then for the lovely Obliger friends, which I will note the majority of the population around the world, or at least those who have completed the quiz are actually obliges. They say by serving others, I serve myself or I'll do anything you ask until I won't. Cause it says wonderful thing about obliger rebellion, which we might touch on later as well.
[00:15:00] Shelley: Oh, yes. I hope we get to talk about obliger rebellion in this episode. If we don't, then it'll be in one of our upcoming episodes but i'd love to know what else did you enjoy about the book Rowena
[00:15:10] Rowena: I really liked, the back end of the book that we just spoke about earlier, where Gretchen covers suggested ways to communicate in order to appeal to all four tendencies, which I think. As a business operator that is super helpful. But as a parent, what I loved was it, there are suggestions also for dealing with a child or a patient or a client of each tendency, which I really feel helps the book be quite practical for the reader and also helps us with applying the knowledge in our lives as well as in our business.
[00:15:40] So not. Well, I guess the word is integrating. It helps us integrate that knowledge and actually apply it rather than just read it and set it aside and say, well, that was nice, which I think can often be a risk with these types of books. So I think that those practical elements on really where you get a thumbs up from me.
[00:15:57] What about you, Shelly? What was something that you particularly enjoyed?
[00:16:00] Shelley: So, yeah, I agree that the book was an easy and fun read. Uh, I read it some time ago. I read it over Christmas holiday and it just like a nice light read for. Especially for one of these kinds of nonfiction, personal development type books, some of them can be a little bit heavy and not exactly like that.
[00:16:18] I'm reading all holiday reading, um, and it was really fun to read. And as you mentioned, like the chapter summaries and the quote pages also great. But the other thing that I really enjoyed about the book was that it explained for me why I act, why I take action. And I know this is something that you mentioned earlier.
[00:16:37] And this kind of self knowledge is really important, especially I find as a solo business owner. And then I'd say the other thing that I love about the book is that it gave me such insights into other people.
[00:16:50] As a rate, all the sections on the other four tendencies. And I could put people that I know into those four tendencies. Because I've got the whole gambit of tendencies in my extended family. And so this is super helpful in explaining their behavior. And as I mentioned, my husband is a questioner and that section of the book, cause like, oh, I get it now. Question is like to ask questions but they don't like to be questioned
[00:17:17] Rowena: So Shelly, I love that.
[00:17:18] So what I'm really hearing is that your experience and I have to say mine too, is that understanding the four tendencies has helped us make sense of both ourselves, but also understand other people better, particularly, uh, partners, but also any relationship. All relationships can benefit from understanding the four tendencies.
[00:17:40] So one last thing that I'd like to say for those who might be thinking about reading the book is one of the things I really loved was that people have written into Gretchen that shared their experiences of their tendency listen to a podcast or as a response to her book better than before. And that shared stories and those stories add color and texture to the book they helped make the content that little bit deeper and a lot more valuable because it's more relatable when you can see examples of people's tendencies, I found that so enjoyable and really helped me fill out, what each tendency looks like.
[00:18:20] Shelley: oh, yes, I a hundred percent agree. Those personal stories and anecdotes, I could see myself in those stories or a friend or a coworker or something like that, or like, oh yes, that happened. Oh, so that's, what's going on behind that behavior.
[00:18:36] Digging deeper into the tendencies, their strengths and weaknesses
[00:18:36] Rowena: And one of the ones that I really loved and it captured the essence of an upholder for me, and it made me think I had a bit of an aha moment was upholders, like to know what's expected of them and they don't like making mistakes or letting people down, including themselves. And I found that was absolutely spot on for me because the letting people down part, I had previously associated with an obliger and therefore I thought, oh, well maybe on an upholder obliger.
[00:19:00] But when I read that particular quote, I went, oh, I am an upholder because that's it. I don't like letting people down, but I also don't like letting myself down. As Gretchen shares about herself, though, because as I mentioned earlier, she is an upholder.
[00:19:14] She says, and I have to agree with this. I don't want to give the impression upholders never struggled to meet expectations. I have to fight to maintain some of my good habits, like going to the gym, making phone calls or running errands. I procrastinate, I slip up , end quote, I think what Gretchen is proving there.
[00:19:32] And I would a hundred percent agree with this is, we are still human, even though we're uphold as, and we, um, you know, respond well to both outer and inner expectations. We still experience resistance and reluctance. It's just that generally we can overcome that.
[00:19:48] Shelley: Yes. And I think also within that is that you are, as you say, you are a human everybody's human, and everyone's got their own personality outside of the four tendencies. Remember the four tendencies is just, it's all about expectation. That's all it's about. So it's just one aspect of your personality.
[00:20:07] I think it's very telling of your personality, but you can be a kind upholder, or you can be an unkind upholder. You can be a, you know, like, uh, a very happy, enthusiastic, bubbly questioner, or you can be like a really nitpicky kind of questioner. So I think. But these differences in your wider aspects of your personality as well.
[00:20:29] Rowena: Absolutely. And I think I would like to just reiterate what you've said there, it's just a tendency. You're not defined by your tendency. It's simply a tool for self-awareness, the expectations and how you manage both inner and outer expectation.
[00:20:43] Mostly is fun for knowing a little bit more about yourself. Shelly and I are sharing here is that we found it really useful. And we found that this book particularly, and the way it's set out and the content shared by Gretchen has been valuable for both of us in how we run our businesses and parent our children and basically live our life.
[00:21:02] Can we let's talk about something that maybe didn't resonate so much because I,
[00:21:08] Shelley: Yes.
[00:21:08] Rowena: of started hinting at what didn't resonate for me,
[00:21:11] um, in that it's just a framework for only how we act or don't act and not a personality framework.
[00:21:17] So how about for you? Was there anything in the book that didn't resonate for? You.
[00:21:22] Shelley: As you said, uh, this is not a black and white thing, right?
[00:21:26] People are in a tendency, but it's a tendency. It's not, a complete box. I think there is a danger that people will box and confine themselves and others into their tendency.
[00:21:38] After reading the book, would you, would you agree.
[00:21:42] Rowena: Yeah. Look, I think, I think Gretchen does a pretty good job of explaining that. It's just about how you act within inner and outer expectations, but I guess my only other concern was around her view that in that overlap that there's only two side by side. So for example, you can't have an upholder overlapping with a rebel and those sorts of things, but I would just caution and say, no framework is a hundred percent accurate all of the time. People are variable and true 20 plus years of professional and personal experience of working with. Um, whether it be in coaching work or mentoring or any other way, it's proven to me that we can't be pigeonholed and it's dangerous to do so. I think I'm absolutely a huge fan of professional and personal development and knowing more about ourselves.
[00:22:34] But I caution that we just need to take it with a grain of salt and understand that it is useful and not definitive.
[00:22:41] Top Takeaways
[00:22:41] Rowena: So Shelley, I guess that brings us to kind of like, we both read this, this book actually a little while ago and then re-read it all kind of tucked back and reviewed it recently.
[00:22:52] I would love to ask you what was the one thing or one of the few things that have stuck with you since the first time you've read it. , then you kind of keep referring back to, I guess it's your key takeaway from the book.
[00:23:04] Shelley: I think for me, It's actually, it's a self-awareness. So, understanding who I am and then playing to those strengths. And as you say, rather than. Being pigeonholed by that, rather seen as expansive to go. Ooh, how can I use this knowledge to really grow and expand?
[00:23:24] And the key takeaway for me personally, as a Rebel was that if I'm going to do something, it needs to appeal, not to my expectations, but to my identity of who I'm aspiring to be, who I want to be, who I am becoming. And that was my takeaway. And it's been something that I've implemented in, the work that we've done together in my business is changing and reframing, like when I do have these expectations of, uh, yeah, like take this podcast. For example, if I had to put this big expectation of a deadline for a launch date and, um, that, that have all of your expectations on me, that would maybe work for an obliger, but it's not going to work for me as a rebel. I'm just going to start getting a little bit antsy and a little bit like.
[00:24:11] Uh, irritated about that. But instead by tapping into my identity. Of like, like, I feel like I'm a podcaster now, this is my third podcast that I'm doing. I'm loving podcasting, and I really want to step up into this identity of being a podcast. I am a podcaster. And so it's reframing the expectation. You still getting the same results. We're still publishing and launching a podcast.
[00:24:37] At around about a deadline dates. But I have reframed this identity piece, let go of the expectations associated with it and rather embraced the identity piece. And for me, obviously, as a rebel, that works really well. I think honestly, I like embracing identity can be very powerful for, for everyone. But I think for a rebel, because you resist expectations, you've got to find another avenue towards getting and achieving your goals. And that is identity tapping into identity, tapping in to what's really important to you as a human being.
[00:25:18] And so that for me has unlocked, so many different changes. So I would say there's one key takeaway. That's my personal favorite takeaway of the book.
[00:25:27] Rowena: Yeah, I love that. And I would endorse that you have absolutely done that. You've taken that and kind of a by grasping hold of your rebel identity, you have actually taken off with it and it's really been beneficial for you. I would say the key thing for me, that key takeaway is that the there's a phrase that Gretchen uses towards the end and it's called "it depends."
[00:25:50] It's the answer. It depends. And because both in my coaching business and just with my family, the, it depends answer is that there's no simple answer. There's no straightforward. One size fits all. If someone says, how do I do the, well, the answer is it depends. Which really is the essence of acknowledging that we are all different in how we respond to an interpret expectations.
[00:26:12] And that's more than okay. And many of my fellow upholders, I know, expect that others should behave in the same way as them. And so through the insights gained in this. And the self knowledge. I now know that while I already did know, most people didn't act the same way as I did. , but this, it depends response is my lovely reminder, it's my takeaway to remember not everybody comes at things from the same way and how we work together or how we relate to one another will be variable and different. According to that person's tendency. And to be honest whether they're having a good day, a bad day. Like all the other stuff that goes.
[00:26:51] Shelley: Yes.
[00:26:51] We can all create the life we want, but we must do it in a way that is right for us
[00:26:51] Rowena: But I did like that from that Shelly, we can, the kind of the key take home message that I think is really beautiful for both you and I, and we've both been living it ourselves, is that we can all take the steps required to create a life we want, but we must just do it in a way that is right for us.
[00:27:09] So what's right for you as a rebel. And what's right, for me as an upholder will be different from what's right. For a question or an obliger, and all of us are valuable and all of us can do it. We just have to find what works for us as individuals. And I think that as a takeaway is a beautiful reminder for all of us
[00:27:28] Shelley: I love that. There's no need to change yourself. Yes, we're, we're, we're discovering more about ourselves, but that doesn't mean we need to change to become like, you know, in this case, another tendency, um,
[00:27:40] I heard somebody asking about, uh, this was on Gretchen Rubin's podcast asking about obliger shame of people going, oh, well I need this accountability to, for example, keep my fitness levels up, say I need a smartwatch. But like, should I almost wean myself off of that accountability so that I can just do this for myself.
[00:28:01] And almost feeling shame because I need this accountability and that is not the case. No one ever has to get rid of their accountability. Do you, what supports you? And you do that for the rest of your life. What if it's supportive? If it serves you, then go for it. And I think this book just illuminates, what are those things that support us and to really be our best versions of ourselves.
[00:28:26] Rowena: Okay, and that's where we're going to wrap it up today. We hope you've enjoyed listening to our very first episode and the discussion about the four tendencies. Remember, we have three more episodes, episodes two, three, and four, discussing ideas from this book, and you can find them at twobookedup. com or in the show notes.
[00:28:46] You can also find me on Instagram at Rowena Mabbott, or if you're interested in my coaching services, you can book a free, that's complimentary, consultation call with me. If you're keen to learn more about your strengths, you can book a Clarity Kickstart.
[00:29:01] For all of this and information on my fiction and nonfiction books, check out my website RowenaMabbott. com. And Shelley, where can our listeners find you?
[00:29:11] Shelley: You can connect with me on LinkedIn, I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, and you can learn more about my copywriting business at shelleysmithcreative. com. That's also where you can find all of my resources on copywriting, using AI tools effectively, and finding the right tech tools for your website and online home.
[00:29:31] So, if you're a service provider who needs your website to do some heavy lifting sales and marketing work for you, because you certainly don't have the luxury of a typical eight hour work day, then I've got you covered over at Shelleysmithcreative. com.
[00:29:48] And of course, remember to visit twobookedup. com.
[00:29:52] For show notes and to download the 24 for 2024 Reading Challenge PDF for free.
[00:29:59] I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith encouraging you to take the Four Tendencies Quiz. But I'm a rebel, so whatever. Take it, don't take it, but seriously, go and take it.
[00:30:12] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We'll see you in two weeks time for another Between the Seasons episode of Two Booked Up.
